Comments on: The Older…The Better??

By: Volleyball Base » Expertise: How to be an expert volleyball player

Volleyball Base » Expertise: How to be an expert volleyball player — Wed, 30 Jul 2008 02:56:12 +0000

[...] older experienced teams are so successful? Check out some of the stats from last years world cup The Older…The Better??. A lot of the teams that had success are fairly old. Although older players may not be at their [...]

By: Dave

Dave — Sun, 03 Feb 2008 18:31:49 +0000

I agree Luke, I think each team will tend to improve as the team gets older, but this does not mean the oldest team is the best team.

By: Luke Campbell

Luke Campbell — Fri, 01 Feb 2008 21:20:29 +0000

The other point I forgot about age is that just becasue the 2 oldest teams didn’t finish at the top doesn’t mean they are past it. Only one team can be the best, and that’s Brazil by a mile. Take Spain, no matter how much they trained that group of players could never be the best in the world at any time. They are just not good enough. Not that they are washed up at all they just aren’t the best.
Same as AUS, we have some really good players, but we are not and will not be the best in the world anytime soon becasue we are just not good enough, not matter what our age or experience level is.

By: Dave

Dave — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:32:03 +0000

Thanks for your comment Luke, its great to get some input from someone who was involved in the World Cup.
You are correct in saying further analysis of games played is required, before drawing definitive conclusions. The weakness of these statistics is that they look at team averages, which can be misleading. The Russian team is a good example with a couple of veterans with 200 or 300 games, and with a large proportion of the team relatively new, with a lot of players around the 50 game mark. A better analysis may be to see what proportion of the team is within certain catergories e.g. 0-50 games, 50-100, etc.
I also referred to “experience” when talking about games played, however it is difficult to actually quantify experience as there are many factors involved. Mark mentioned club games, and playing in different leagues. Your point of games started vs games in the 12 is good too.
As far as Spain and USA goes, I was just putting it out there as a question based on nothing more than the stats in front of me. My main contention was that older teams tend to do better, but these are the two oldest teams and did not finish right at the top. So is there an optimal average age for a team? Well yes, older is generally better up to a point, however, age is not the most important factor, how well you play volleyball is.
I agree with you about height, it is more important in some positions but at the end of the day you can still be a gun player regardless of height. Keep in mind the statistics for height are team averages, which of course means there will be some shorter individuals and some taller ones.

By: Luke Campbell

Luke Campbell — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:28:28 +0000

Some interesting points have been raised here, and I’d like to comment too. Mark had some good responses as well.
The stats for the World Cup as far as average games player per team needs to be looked at closer.
Take Russia, to say that because they average 140 games they are very experienced is wrong. They have a very inexperienced team at the moment with a lot of newer young players. If you take out the captains 500 games see what the average goes down to then, a hell of a lot less I’m sure.
Mark is right about what games count, for example Australia, we count every game we play, if we actually play or not. Now I like this because it reflects how long you’ve been with the team and can show dedication to the national team. But showing games actually played would be very different, we have a number of players to have played over 150 games, and maybe only started in 20 or 30. Now I take nothing away from them, they are still representing the Australian Men’s Team in my mind, but as far as experience goes, it doesn’t really count.
The teams of Spain and the USA have definitely not “passed their primes” as far as age goes. The Spanish team has been the most improved team in the World this season, without a doubt, so saying they are past it is way off. They should be respected as a great “team” as they play as a unit, something that makes them better.
The USA for me, is the 2nd best “team” in the world next to Brazil. They work together perfectly and have been together for a long time so know each other’s games. In my opinion they are not past it, but we will see how they go in 2009 when the majority of this team finishes, then you can say if they were past it, or still better than the new age.
As far as height goes, I think it is highly over rated in most positions. Take setters, the best setter in the last 10 years probably come from the Brazilian, French, Russian, Argentinean and Polish national teams and they are all under 200cm and many under 190cm. There have been 2 exceptions in the last 10 years, Ball form USA and Blange from Holland, both over 200cm and both great great setters.
The best pass hitters shows the same thing. Players like Giba, Papi, Tetyukhin, Antiga, Murilo, our own Hardy, Vujevic and Cisolla are all under 200cm and some down to 190! Yes of course there will be exceptions and that great, everyone can play our sport.
Middle is where height is very popular, but still not essential. Ok the best are tall, Howard, Mastralangalo and Gustavo but they are not over 210. And there are many very good middles 200 and under like Heller and Hubner.
Opposites seem to be getting bigger and bigger and this for me is the position that height will become most important. The best are massive guys, well over 200 and strong and very mobile.
In case you can’t tell I don’t rate height as an essential, however skill and speed are.

By: Dave

Dave — Wed, 30 Jan 2008 15:48:37 +0000

Thanks for the comment Mark.
I took the stats from the FIVB website for the World Cup. The figure i used for games was “National Representations”. I’m not sure if the FIVB have a definition for this…I’d assume it would be any official game in which a player was in the 12, but thats just my guess.
You are right on the experience factor. National Representations is only one facet of a players experience, and gives no indication of what the player may have done outside of playing for their country.
Older players generally have more experience, in all facets; international games, friendly games, club games etc. One of the main points was that age (and the experience that comes with that age) is a more important factor than games.
Oh, and no offence taken, in terms of my volleyball, Germany is a great experience.

By: mark

mark — Wed, 30 Jan 2008 12:44:56 +0000

Interesting stuff. But if I may make a couple of points.
I wouldn’t take too much into account with the number of international games as different countries count games differently. For example, Australia counts being in the 12 as a match, while USA only counts it if you get on the court. I’m pretty sure Russia don’t count friendly matches at all and Puerto Rico just hasn’t played international matches. And the figure for Brazil can’t be accurate. I don’t know how they end up with a number like that. Maybe they only count matches in tournaments they win.
Plus international matches doesn’t take into account other experience factors like the standard of the league the individual players play in. A player who is playing every year in the playoffs in Italy or Russia has a different level of experience as someone playing in Germany (sorry ) or Denmark even if the number of international matches might say otherwise.
When I look at how heights compare, I always take the libero out of the calculations. The libero is height independent and I think it makes it a more accurate reflection, although it wouldn’t change your conclusion just maybe the cutoff point.

By: Height? Age? Experience? « devo’s volleyball

Height? Age? Experience? « devo’s volleyball — Tue, 29 Jan 2008 21:02:09 +0000

[...] Posted by devo on January 30, 2008 Dave Jones has an interesting analysis of factors that help an international team win – height, age, experience etc – on Volleyball Base [...]